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    What would you change?

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    Team Andino

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    What would you change?

    Post  Team Andino on Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:30 pm

    There were a few things I wasn't to fond of in the film and I wish were don't differently as I'm sure everyone else has there own. I'll list a couple things. I only have a few but IMO there enough to seriously affect the movie.

    -I wish Jigsaw was a little more serious
    -I HATED Jigsaws brother, Loony Bin Jim was way to over the top.
    -I wasn't to fond of Jigsaw giving a silly speech with the American flag background feel to it.
    -The Punisher logo could of been a little more noticeable.
    -The drugged up free runners were a little meh but it was just to much that he was hit with a rocket in mid air.
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    Brendan
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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Brendan on Mon Mar 02, 2009 11:07 pm

    "Damn it, don't die on me kid!"

    You'd think any writer, filmmaker, or actor would know by now that lines like this don't work anymore within any context."
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    Kable24

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Kable24 on Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:03 am

    All of those, plus...

    The lighting. I hated the over use of purples, reds, yellows, greens and blues. Every once in a while is ok, but it was constant.

    What happened to Micro. It would have been nice to see him live and if we got a sequel to beef up his character some. He had lots of potential.

    Don't make Soap an inept moron. He's a Police Officer with a degree in Psychology. Don't act like a grade schooler with the dumb looks.

    For the writers, remember what works in comics doesn't always translate to the screen.
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    Sgt.Castle

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Sgt.Castle on Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:29 am

    Damn...pretty much everything you guys said.

    I would have liked to have seen Jigsaw portrayed more as a psychopath.

    Micro should have survived.

    The skull should have been MUCH brighter.

    Tone down the violence a bit, and make it more believable.

    Get rid of some of the characters, or extend there roles (Miginty,Pitsy, Ink,etc.)

    And NICKY CAVELLA SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A FUCKING COP!!!!!!!!!!!

    and the fucking script.....Jesus....it just makes me sick thinking what Lexi did to this movie.......
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    screams

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  screams on Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:18 pm

    Brendan wrote:"Damn it, don't die on me kid!"

    You'd think any writer, filmmaker, or actor would know by now that lines like this don't work anymore within any context."

    Unless it's Jim Carrey. "Now don't you go dyin' on me!"
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    War Zone

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  War Zone on Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:49 pm

    Compared to the other two previous Punisher films, War Zone has the highest entertainment value. In this movie, Castle walks the open streets, armed to the teeth without alarming citizens or the police. Why? Because this Punisher has an uneasy endorsement from local law enforcement; plus the citizens see him as a savior who exists in the same weird world as Spider-Man, The X-Men, Iron Man and The Hulk. Apparently to New Yorkers, The Punisher walking in and out of the subway stops with guns is of no big concern. Keeping that in mind, the Punisher has gone round for round with both villains and superheroes alike in the comics so impossibilities are not beyond the character. War Zone is a comic book movie, NOT "The English Patient".

    Ray Stevenson does justice to the Punisher. He's got the perfect look and is more intimidating than Dolph Lundgren and Thomas Jane combined. Most of his stilted dialogue probably comes from the challenge of shedding his English accent, but it matters little. He communicates far better with his actions and silent brooding. Dominic West and Doug Hutchinson chew up the scenery with their over-the-top performances as New York mobster psychopaths. While West goes for his own version of the Joker from "Batman", Hutchinson draws upon his long history of playing frightening villains (his most famous being the slimy prison guard Percy from "The Green Mile"). Both compliment each other with malicious glee as they terrorize every poor soul they encounter.
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    Mike

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Mike on Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:05 pm

    Brendan wrote:"Damn it, don't die on me kid!"

    You'd think any writer, filmmaker, or actor would know by now that lines like this don't work anymore within any context."

    Yeah, you know something Castle would have or should have said was, "There's nothing I can do for you."

    War Zone wrote:Compared to the other two previous Punisher films, War Zone has the highest entertainment value. In this movie, Castle walks the open streets, armed to the teeth without alarming citizens or the police. Why? Because this Punisher has an uneasy endorsement from local law enforcement; plus the citizens see him as a savior who exists in the same weird world as Spider-Man, The X-Men, Iron Man and The Hulk. Apparently to New Yorkers, The Punisher walking in and out of the subway stops with guns is of no big concern. Keeping that in mind, the Punisher has gone round for round with both villains and superheroes alike in the comics so impossibilities are not beyond the character. War Zone is a comic book movie, NOT "The English Patient".

    Ray Stevenson does justice to the Punisher. He's got the perfect look and is more intimidating than Dolph Lundgren and Thomas Jane combined. Most of his stilted dialogue probably comes from the challenge of shedding his English accent, but it matters little. He communicates far better with his actions and silent brooding. Dominic West and Doug Hutchinson chew up the scenery with their over-the-top performances as New York mobster psychopaths. While West goes for his own version of the Joker from "Batman", Hutchinson draws upon his long history of playing frightening villains (his most famous being the slimy prison guard Percy from "The Green Mile"). Both compliment each other with malicious glee as they terrorize every poor soul they encounter.

    And yeah it's not The English Patient, but it should at least have been a competently made film. Stevenson's "stilted dialogue" doesn't come from trying to shed his English accent, it comes from taking direction from a bad director.

    West and Huchison, great actors in their own right just plain bad in this movie, Huchison is joke as is West, they aren't frightening one bit.

    All the other characters from the MAX book were pretty much wasted, they were given the reverse Harry Heck treatment.
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    Punisher_MAX

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Punisher_MAX on Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:00 pm

    after watching the trailer for Public Enemies i honestly believe Michael Mann shoulve done a Punisher movie especially if its an adaptation of the Slavers.
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    Mike

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Mike on Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:08 pm

    Hell, John Dahl would have been a better pick for director.
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    Brendan
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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Brendan on Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:34 pm

    You know, Akira Kurosawa once said that "A bad director can make a good movie from a good script. A good director can not make a good movie from a bad script."

    I don't think Lexi Alexander is a bad filmmaker. I really liked Green Street Hooligans when I first saw it, I thought Johnny Flynton was a nice little short film, and there were things in Punisher War Zone that really stood out for me visually. I think the biggest flaws in the movie come from the writing.


    btw, welcome to the forums War Zone and Mike!
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    Mike

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Mike on Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:58 am

    Thanks for the welcome.

    And yeah, I've heard that Kurosawa quote before so. I personally don't think she's that good of a director, and was just the wrong choice to direct War Zone. There were some scenes that looked nice, like the church scene (even if it was laughable, it did look nice) everything else just looked cheap and lacked scope.

    The writing is the biggest flaw, but the performances do come a close fucking second.
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    fat freddys cat

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  fat freddys cat on Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:38 am

    Mike wrote:

    And yeah it's not The English Patient, but it should at least have been a competently made film. Stevenson's "stilted dialogue" doesn't come from trying to shed his English accent, it comes from taking direction from a bad director.

    West and Huchison, great actors in their own right just plain bad in this movie, Huchison is joke as is West, they aren't frightening one bit.

    All the other characters from the MAX book were pretty much wasted, they were given the reverse Harry Heck treatment.


    Well said !

    I could not agree more, and for my own two cents worth war zone (to me) was just like the 89 dolph movie all over again.........

    A slightly silly action movie, with lets be said some good action, but with a grim script and not much better acting.

    This describes both the 89 and the 08 movies.....

    At least the 04 movie was trying too get away from all this (yes some parts where silly still), and Jane was trying too, hence him not returning too play the character..........
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    Punisherknife.com

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Punisherknife.com on Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:46 am

    I think your all right and wrong at the same time.

    Lexi Alexander is simply beyond what happened to the Punisher movie.
    What Happened.....? It was Great.
    No one is looking at Comic book movie's and giving up the fact that
    the rankings of comic books in the world of English literature are at the bottom in the first place.

    Check history......before the advent of video games and computer animation, ....they were lauded among their cult following...but that's were it ends.
    This includes Batman, Superman and the rest. People who read and followed comics were actually looked down upon.

    Then the Punisher who is in fact a stone cold Pac-man with weapons.

    In War Zone....he's been at it for six years. He doesn't care about anything except his mission.
    So what did anyone expect him to say. And how could it be less violent considering the mission.

    I think the entire movie was Excellent.

    As for it's movie rankings and popularity,those who didn't like it wouldn't like the Punisher comic either, and probably never even heard of it. Did anyone think it would equal
    Superman, or Batman, who's story's have been told on TV, and movies over and over through the years....?

    Those movies have had lot's of practice, lot's of publicity.

    If anything the second movie with Jane was the movie that parted from the comic and attempted to make the character
    into a compassionate person. Sure he may have been compassionate at one time....but look at all the case files in the detectives office.
    And as for the detective being a joke......well that's what he was,
    he realized it, and the animation of his character was just so the audience would get the message.


    So....it's not the fault of the director, writers or actors that they
    made a movie that followed the comic book to a T.

    Comic books....and some thick ones, now termed Graphic Novels are just not Shakespeare.
    And again how could the story of a man killing extremely violent
    hardened criminal psychopathic villains every day for years be done
    any differently.

    Of course I'm a bit biased....LOL but that's my opinion
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    Mike

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Mike on Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:45 pm

    It has nothing to do with the violence, in fact when I heard how violent it was and finally saw it I was kinda disappointed with it, it seemed to have tried to go for Rambo levels of violence and I think it didn't achieve it.

    The problem with the movie was the fact that the script and most of the performances sucked, and it was nothing really like the MAX comics that Alexander and everyone was saying it was going to be based on, because Garth Ennis actually writes compelling stories (of which only maybe 2 or 3 in his run on MAX were particularly goofy).

    The 2004 film has it's problems, it does. But the characterization of Frank Castle is not one of them, because it was an origin story and just like the Year One comic of which it is partially based on, he doesn't just go on a killing spree right away.
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    Brendan
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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Brendan on Wed Mar 11, 2009 10:34 pm

    Hey PunisherKnife, welcome to the forums and hope you continue posting!


    The first thing that I would like to agree with you on is Lexi Alexander is beyond what happened to this movie and does not deserve any blame for the film's box office numbers. Her job was to create a vision for the movie and bring it to life, and in that she succeeded.

    I would also like to say that when I first saw the movie, (I saw it two days in a row opening weekend, which is the first and only time I've ever done that and probably will never do it again) I enjoyed the hell out of it. There is a lot of throwbacks to the comic books that I understood right off the bat, but I started to think that any outside viewer who hasn't read the comic books prior to this is really robbed of that experience.

    Lets take that one scene you mentioned in the room with all the filing cabinets. That is a scene that they took straight from the comic books. I think we might have seen that done more than once. But before I try to explain why this scene doesn't work for an outside viewer, lets keep in mind that comic books and films are two completely different mediums. Every iconic hero right now including the Punisher has a history of 30 + years to draw from. When we see a moment in a comic book where there is an entire room filled with files on all the murders that Frank Castle has been involved with, it makes total sense. We know this guy has a history. We've seen this guy's earlier years already from the comic books in the 80's and even the 70's. In the movie however, they explain that Frank Castle has been operating as the Punisher for only 6 years. The numbers don't really add up here. If he's really killed thousands and thousands of people over the course of 6 years, then there really shouldn't be any criminals or mobs even left in New York.

    Also, when you mention the success of movies like the recent Batman and even the earlier Superman films, the reason those were so successful was because they proved that comic book heroes could be given serious adaptations. The Dark Knight exists in a realistic world that sort of mirrors our own. Some of the most recent movies that existed in a comic book universe that was nothing like the real world were movies like Fantastic Four and Spider-Man 3. Sure Spider-Man 3 was a big success at the box office, but it kind of died down after awhile. It could have continued to make more money the way TDK did if it lived up to expectations, but instead of choosing to follow up the serious tone that was established in Spider-Man 2, they were more interested in making a big visually awesome pop corn flick that was more about action and contained throw backs to things from the comic books that hadn't touched upon yet (Venom, Black Suit, Gwen Stacy, etc.) and the writing suffered in order to achieve that. Because there was no real depth to what was new to that movie series, everything felt tact on, because it was. I think what TDK proved with Two Face and Joker is that you can still add everything to the movie from the comic book you want, as long as the writing is good and you give reason for why its there and add depth to the characters. No one is asking for Shakespeare, and any character who has had a history of development as long as the Punisher's, has a chance at being adapted into a movie that will either create mass appeal or become memorable later on.

    I understood what Lexi Alexander was saying about the film though. She said she didn't want to make a gritty, realistic film because she was a little afraid of creating something where the would agree with Frank and try something. But like I said, I applaud her for bringing her vision to the screen and entertaining me, but at the same time I disagree with her when it comes to a realistic films adaptation of Frank being both faithful and possible. I think Ennis' MAX series is a great piece of literature and War Zone's writing did not match that. But like I said, I still enjoyed it.
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    Mike

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Mike on Wed Mar 11, 2009 11:58 pm

    Brendan wrote:The first thing that I would like to agree with you on is Lexi Alexander is beyond what happened to this movie and does not deserve any blame for the film's box office numbers. Her job was to create a vision for the movie and bring it to life, and in that she succeeded.

    I would also like to say that when I first saw the movie, (I saw it two days in a row opening weekend, which is the first and only time I've ever done that and probably will never do it again) I enjoyed the hell out of it. There is a lot of throwbacks to the comic books that I understood right off the bat, but I started to think that any outside viewer who hasn't read the comic books prior to this is really robbed of that experience.

    Lets take that one scene you mentioned in the room with all the filing cabinets. That is a scene that they took straight from the comic books. I think we might have seen that done more than once. But before I try to explain why this scene doesn't work for an outside viewer, lets keep in mind that comic books and films are two completely different mediums. Every iconic hero right now including the Punisher has a history of 30 + years to draw from. When we see a moment in a comic book where there is an entire room filled with files on all the murders that Frank Castle has been involved with, it makes total sense. We know this guy has a history. We've seen this guy's earlier years already from the comic books in the 80's and even the 70's. In the movie however, they explain that Frank Castle has been operating as the Punisher for only 6 years. The numbers don't really add up here. If he's really killed thousands and thousands of people over the course of 6 years, then there really shouldn't be any criminals or mobs even left in New York.

    Also, when you mention the success of movies like the recent Batman and even the earlier Superman films, the reason those were so successful was because they proved that comic book heroes could be given serious adaptations. The Dark Knight exists in a realistic world that sort of mirrors our own. Some of the most recent movies that existed in a comic book universe that was nothing like the real world were movies like Fantastic Four and Spider-Man 3. Sure Spider-Man 3 was a big success at the box office, but it kind of died down after awhile. It could have continued to make more money the way TDK did if it lived up to expectations, but instead of choosing to follow up the serious tone that was established in Spider-Man 2, they were more interested in making a big visually awesome pop corn flick that was more about action and contained throw backs to things from the comic books that hadn't touched upon yet (Venom, Black Suit, Gwen Stacy, etc.) and the writing suffered in order to achieve that. Because there was no real depth to what was new to that movie series, everything felt tact on, because it was. I think what TDK proved with Two Face and Joker is that you can still add everything to the movie from the comic book you want, as long as the writing is good and you give reason for why its there and add depth to the characters. No one is asking for Shakespeare, and any character who has had a history of development as long as the Punisher's, has a chance at being adapted into a movie that will either create mass appeal or become memorable later on.

    I understood what Lexi Alexander was saying about the film though. She said she didn't want to make a gritty, realistic film because she was a little afraid of creating something where the would agree with Frank and try something. But like I said, I applaud her for bringing her vision to the screen and entertaining me, but at the same time I disagree with her when it comes to a realistic films adaptation of Frank being both faithful and possible. I think Ennis' MAX series is a great piece of literature and War Zone's writing did not match that. But like I said, I still enjoyed it.

    Ultimately I think the place where Alexander really fucked up was with the performances, from everyone having one shitty accent to another to West and Huchison.

    And that whole reasoning of why she didn't make it realistic or gritty and cartoonish because she didn't want people to go out and try something is a ridiculous thing really. You make the violence realistic, unflinching and uncomfortable to get that affect not the other way around. Take the Spacker Dave torture in the 2004 film, there isn't a drop of blood shed but that scene is more effective at making me uncomfortable than any of the violence in War Zone.

    I wasn't looking for Shakespeare, just you know a nice gritty crime film that you really don't see these days anymore, but that left with Jane and the idea of Walter Hill writing/directing and what was given I didn't particularly dig. The action really didn't do anything for me, and I like the over-the-top stuff like Crank and Rambo, just War Zone basically had two extended action scenes and I didn't find them that compelling.
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    Punisherknife.com

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Punisherknife.com on Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:42 am

    Brendan:
    Thanks for the welcome, and the nice forum.

    Well, I agree with you, about being worrisome that people would see the movie and try it......LOL
    I've seen hundreds of gritty movies and have yet to
    mimic any of them. The same goes for millions of other viewers, so I think the responsibility falls upon the individual viewer.

    As for the writing.

    you can still add everything to the movie from the comic book you want, as long as the writing is good and you give reason for why its there and add depth to the characters.

    Even though not the opening like movie 2, the character development could have been better, and, it's not that character development was not present....just..... far less effective than say, the short Alexander movie Johnny Flynton.
    But, Alexander wrote that one.
    So.....on to the next project.....LOL.


    Perhaps at the opening of the movie, a recanting
    audio background saying as in movie 2 that it was not revenge etc. but Punishment,
    might have helped people who never read the comic book or saw any of the previous movies.

    Also, I have to applaud the entire crew, for working in 10 degree weather. Maybe an endurance test for NEWBIE directors etc. , and I'm sure lot's to do with total concentration on the job at hand.

    Finally, all of it is a shot in the arm for Frank Castle and the Punisher.

    I liked the movie, and will be watching the DVD repeatedly....LOL
    And posting on the forum.
    Your time and effort here is appreciated.
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    Brendan
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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Brendan on Mon Mar 16, 2009 6:13 am

    I kinda find this conversation about us Punisher fans not wanting "Shakespeare" from the writing a bit funny. I can't help but wonder if Thor fans don't want the same thing we do because they're getting it with the director who is best known for adaptations of Henry V, Hamlet, and Much Ado About Nothing.
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    Mike

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Mike on Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:25 pm

    While I do enjoy the 2004 film, as flawed as it is, it had quite a bit of a Shakespearean feel specifically Othello only with a reversal of characters. Not to mention the spaghetti western and '70s action film influence, it was movie people didn't expect, like 2003's Hulk.

    What I was looking for was, lie I mentioned a good well written gritty crime film, and got big dumb action instead that pretty much killed the character film wise.
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    screams

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  screams on Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:17 pm

    After watching it again I think the only thing I would have loved them to just keep out was when LBJ and Jigsaw are in the lobby to that building and LBJ is breaking mirrors.

    Also, the plot wasn't bad, they could have easily just given it more beef though.
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    Punisherknife.com

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Punisherknife.com on Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:30 pm

    Well I just got the DVD and will be watching it in a few minutes.
    As for Shakespeare, it's just a figure of speech,
    and from what I remember which is little.... he was a bit gritty himself.
    I am just tired of reading thousands of posts on so many sites that
    disrespected the movie before it was even filmed....LOL
    I suppose I'm a bit defencive.
    Please excuse it.
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    Punisher_MAX

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Punisher_MAX on Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:59 pm

    screams wrote:After watching it again I think the only thing I would have loved them to just keep out was when LBJ and Jigsaw are in the lobby to that building and LBJ is breaking mirrors.

    Also, the plot wasn't bad, they could have easily just given it more beef though.

    Saw it again and yeah it need some more beef...I'd have cut out LBJ out entirely he was just annoying. The action wasnt bad but i was expecting more.

    I'm still gonna write my adaptation of The Slavers and try my hardest to shop it around.
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    Mike

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Mike on Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:30 pm

    He was pretty pointless. What they should have done was given Huchison the role of Ink (and they should have recast Pittsy and gotten an actor who is more of a bruiser) and just beefed up those two roles.
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    Balthus Dire

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Balthus Dire on Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:12 pm

    The one thing that bothers me most when watching PWZ is Lexi Alexander's shot selection. She is obsessed with close up shots with massive lead room on one side; it's insane! I'm not exagerrating when I say almost every single shot in the movie when characters are having a conversation is like this.

    Incase you don't understand what I mean, the character will be framed on either the far left or right side of the screen with a MASSIVE gap of space on the other side. Sometimes it's painful to watch like when Micro and Frank talk for the first time. Frank has this massive empty space next to him for absolutely no reason, and they don't even vary it with the editing by throwing in some over the shoulder shots...it's just FACE cut to FACE cut to FACE...


    That's my biggest beef with PWZ to be honest.
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    Mike

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    Re: What would you change?

    Post  Mike on Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:10 am

    I don't recall, but are there any wide establishing shots at all in the movie?

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